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[Fauho]

Beeing a supersponsor myself last year, I found it marvelous to get all these goodies like the towel and mug and such, I was pretty ok with the reserved seats (although it was kinda hilarious to find out most of them were unused, it seems like most furs stayed in their room because they believed they wouldn't have good places anyway and could follow it much better on the TV in their room, leaving the mainstage area quit empty)... But I found it rather unfair to let the supersponsors get to the dealers den before the major crowd could. Well, just my humble opinion....

[Cheetah]

Why do you think this privilege is unfair, as opposed to the others?

[krakendwaggin]

As A Super Sponsor myself last year, Yeah the vast open spaces of seats when shows started was kinda funny as you'd think that people would've moved closer to the stage just before the show started!

The towel and the mug were great, though I didn't realise it was a heat-changing mug until I made a cuppa tea in it! >.>

The early access to the Dealers Den I thought was one of the really worthwhile perks of going Super Sponsor, it -kinda- was unfair depending on how you look at it but there isn't much Eurofurence can offer as a thank you to us, the goodies are great and such but they ain't always cheap, letting us into the Dealers Den a hour early is free.

I missed out a bit on commissioning some artists in there before they got swamped (mostly because I missed them totally!), so having this lil perk of being able to be in there a hour before everyone else does have it's advantages, I remember the 'wow' factor when I walked out of the doors to see the queue that went all the way to the far staircase, I don't think that queue died down for a good few hours!.

So to summarise, Yeah it does feel a little unfair considering the numbers of Super Sponsors to Regular and such, "These guys have money so we're gonna let them in to the dealers den sooner than everyone else" it ain't, it's one of the few things that Eurofurence can offer as a perk which costs them absolutely nothing to do!.

[Zefiro]

Please also remember that we're not making any money from this - Eurofurence is a not-for-profit organisation, so every bit of extra money which sponsors and supersponsors give actually benefits all of us. So actually we all benefit more from them than they do from those little (s)sponsor gifts. Still think that's unfair?

*purrrrr*

[Fauho]

It just feels ackward and uncomfortable to see a huge row of people waiting for hours to get in, you just passing that row last minute, entering before them and snatching goodies away from the people waiting outside just because you can afford more then some who saved up a whole year for this...that is what feels unfair to me... Well, anyway, if everyone else is ok with it I guess I shouldn't bother either >>

[Skie]

It just feels ackward and uncomfortable to see a huge row of people waiting for hours to get in, you just passing that row last minute, entering before them and snatching goodies away from the people waiting outside just because you can afford more then some who saved up a whole year for this...that is what feels unfair to me... Well, anyway, if everyone else is ok with it I guess I shouldn't bother either >>

*agrees* Yes, I recall I posted that I think this is the only unfair bit in super sponsorship.

[SouthPaw]

Why do I have a sense of déjà vu here? Oh yeah...Probably because we had this exact same discussion last year, when the topic of Sponsor and Supersponsor perks was first mentioned. 

The basic summary was that Sponsor and Supersponsor are a good thing, because they help keep Standard membership (relatively) cheap and the "perks" are things that don't cost the con all that much. Of course, they could drop the higher tiers completely, but then the con fee would probably end up somewhere around the €120 mark...

Cheers,

Southie

[Fauho]

Why do I have a sense of déjà vu here? Oh yeah...Probably because we had this exact same discussion last year, when the topic of Sponsor and Supersponsor perks was first mentioned.  

True, but that was before finding out that almost half of the reserved seat area stayed empty during most events there and a lot of furs staying on their room watching the shows on tv, making the main stage feel ackwardly 'empty' during most events, big contrast to the cosy packed events we had at the Ringberg, and besides, I found out that the main stage offers quit good view from nearly every point were you sit, even with taller furs sitting next before ya, making the reserved area a bit unnecessary imho.

[Cheetah]

Actually, the empty seats were just a lack of experience ... if you do something like this for the first time, you don't know how many will actually make use of their privilege, and since you promised everyone a seat, you're on the safe side basically reserving one for each. Can you imagine the complaints if just one supersonsor didn't get their seat? So we know that most events won't draw a full audience, so we can reduce the numer of reserved seats for those.

[Gyroplast]

Just for completeness sake: We might be largely german, but not pointlessly bureaucratic. 

Security was instructed to NOT shoo people away from reserved seats after the show started, as long as every "authorized" guest, who might be coming in late, still gets a seat if they want to. Everyone seemed to understand "Sure, sit down there now, but if a supersponsor asks to sit here, please scoot over." what I consider as common sense and fair. It's not about segregation, it's all about making this gig more affordable for everyone, and if we promise every supersponsor a seat, we have to be able to deliver, simple as that.

Of course, we cannot help people who don't even LOOK if there are seats available for them, and stay in their rooms right away, no matter how cool EF TV's life feeds are.

[VulpesRex]

I usually register at the "Supersponsor" or "Patron" or whatever the top-level membership is, primarily because I can.  My current position is such that I can afford to support Fan Activities at the moment, but it hasn't always been so, and may not be so in the future; who can say what Fate will hand us?  But at the current time, I am able  - and so I do.

I appreciate all the little perks and goodies that I get; they certainly aren't worth the extra money that I pay, for that would defeat the whole purpose of charging extra in the first place.  As tokens of thanks, they are like any gift: It's the thought that counts.  We all understand this - and again, most of us register at the higher level, to benefit the convention overall.

Now - certain of the "extras" do give us the appearance of an advantage, like the first seating for stage events.  I really appreciate this, as one of the highlights of my trip is the Pawpet Show, and it's nice to get a view with few people in front, standing up with celphone cameras, trying to capture the whole thing, but blocking the view...but I noticed that this year, with the benefit of a real stage and the two video monitors, that there really were no bad seats, provided that again people refrained from either standing up with a camera, or holding their arm aloft with one.  So my particular benefit didn't really impact any one else's ability to enjoy the stage performances or the pawpet show.

Likewise the "Supersponsor only" programming, which in this case meant a "Sake Appreciation" (or Sake-tasting) event with Onkel Kage and assistance by Stan Sakai.  It really wasn't a "core" furry fan function, and I don't think anyone begrudged us the 4 small shotglasses, each carrying a sip or two of the key grades of Sake, while having the subtle differences in taste and effect explained by Doctor Conway.  I learned something, and I'm glad I could participate, but missing it wouldn't have affected my convention experience.

The separate line for art pickup from the Art Show - Yes, this eliminated much time that I would have spent in queue; I had to wait anyway, but I know others had to wait far longer.  This is the case with nearly every convention Art Show, and the solution - If I weren't a Supersponsor - would have been to simply go on and do other things, and come back when the line was shorter, or non-existent.

So far - each of these privileges is like the caviar and string quartette that the First-Class passengers enjoyed, while crossing the Atlantic on a grand liner; the folks in steerage didn't live as grandly, but then, the point of the trip for them was economical transport to the New World.

But there was one privilege, one perk, which we could exercise, but only at the expense of others - and this was the one of First-Access to the Dealers' Den.  Let me explain why this is so.

There has been a marked change in the demand of Furry Fandom from artists and dealers - particularly the artists.  Traditionally, many artists have made and sold prints of their artwork, some of it represented by originals in the Art Show, most of it where the originals have already been sold or are for other reasons not available.  Until the last year or so, this made up the bulk of income for artists in the Dealers' Den.  But for the last two years, there has been a notable decline in the sale of prints - Furry Fans now want original, unique artwork, and for many of them, it is artwork, often a con-badge, drawn of their own personal character/personal Furry, or something done to order for a Sketchbook - and preferably done on-site, during the Con, for delivery before the convention closes its run.  The artists who will take commissions of this sort will spend much of their time at their table, doing these badges and sketches and sketchbooks - and then spend hours late into the night, in their rooms, doing "homework" as they call it.

Remember! - As much as we think of Furry Conventions as parties and Fun Time, for these artists and dealers, this is work for necessary income - and they can only do so much of it, in the limited hours given, which means that each artist can only take so many commissions/sketch requests per convention.  And usually, they get a convention's full of work within the first day, if not the first hour or so, of the Dealers' Den opening.

Necessarily, not all fans who wish to get a commission from their favorite artist will be able to.  And for many, if not most of these fans, this convention represents their only opportunity to try to do so.  So one takes ones' chance, and hopes that they are early enough or far enough ahead in the line, to have a crack at at least one favored artist.  But...even if one is at the very head of the line, and has waited an hour - or two - for the Dealers' Den to open - it can be heartbreaking, and rather bitter, to find that the artists have already reached their quota for commissions, even before the room is formally opened to the general furry membership, because the Supersponsors had first crack.  There is no alternative, no "Plan 'B'" here, no real "second choice", as there is for the event seating.

To extend the earlier analogy - The folks in Steerage can abide the swells and aristos with their caviar and music - it is a completely different matter when the ship strikes an iceberg...and there are no seats left in lifeboats. (yes, it is a rather extreme analogy, bordering on the absurd, but I think it explains my point).  For we Supersponsors to have first crack at a limited, important resource, for which there is no approximate analog or similar remedy, seems - at the very least - "unsporting", if you will.  The general membership would feel, in this one case at least, that the cards are stacked against them.

I like my privileges - but I, for one, am willing to sacrifice this one advantage to take my chances, the same chances as everyone else, due to the limits on commissions.  It seems fairer to me - and I think this is the point others tried to make.

Other than that one concern, I am quite pleased by the efforts that EuroFURence has made to show appreciation for the people who are willing to pay extra, in order to keep the convention itself affordable.

[Skie]

@VulpesRex I love you. There's no more to be said and it couldn't be said better.

[Schneelocke]

I disagree with the notion that early access to the Dealer's Den for supersponsors is a bad thing (although I may not be as eloquent as others, so bear with me).

I think the point about fairness is a good one, actually, but I don't think that the real problem there is early access. If an artist is so popular that their commission queue will be filled to the brim pretty much right away, there's always going to be people who're left behind - people who waited and then didn't manage to snag the commission they wanted.

And that's always unfair, in a way, but it's a fact of life; just because you waited in line for an hour doesn't mean you'll definitely get what you wanted from your artist of choice. It would be the same if there simply were a bunch of people waiting in line ahead of you.

But wait, you say! In THAT case, you could just have come in a bit earlier and been at the front of the line yourself! But the same thing is true for the sponsor levels: they're open to everyone; it's not as if there's a limited number of supersponsor slots available, and in fact, I think you can still upgrade even when you're already at the con and waiting in line at the registration desk. (Staffers, please correct me if I'm wrong there.)

So I really fail to see the difference.

Finally: let's be honest, it's not the end of the world when you don't get a commission from your favorite artist, right? You'll probably get another chance later on, anyway, either online or at a different con.

So yeah, please keep the early access to the dealer's den. I really enjoyed it last year - not because I'm evil and want to snatch away commission opportunities from other attendees, but because it allowed me to check out the dealer's den when there was actually a decent amount of room to move about and browse and buy a book or two.

And I'll be frank and say that it's little things like this that actually make the supersponsor level worth it, too. Sure, I'm paying the extra money because I care about the con and want to help out, not because I expect to "get my money's worth", but getting a few extra perks in return is fair, and when it's things that don't cost the con any money so that the supersponsor fee helps keep the basic attendance fee low for everyone else - all the better.

Just my two cents.

[Gyroplast]

TL;DR: Talk to favored artist before the convention, get your commission slot, point and laugh at supersponsors scrambling to the table of your favorite artist waving with wads of cash, retrieve your finished commission without convention markup at any time you please, chat a bit with artist instead. Sounds good?


@Schneelocke
You're formally right that there's no limit to supersponsors, and everyone who pays the extra fee gets to reap the benefits. However, that is exactly what seems to be bothering people, that those who pay extra become, in a way, preferred customers, which could be construed as unfair towards those who could just afford the commission, but not the extra supersponsor fee.

To be honest, this feels like an entirely constructed problem to me, for several reasons:

For starters, I'd be honestly surprised if a significant amount of people (say, more than three) TRULY and HONESTLY fall into that liquidity range of being able to pay for this very commission, but not for the extra supersponsor fee if they "need" the commission so dearly. Not wanting to pay the extra fee is an entirely different matter, and, frankly, a matter of personal priorisation.

In addition, those favored artists are not tiny magic shops. They do not magically appear in our Dealers' Den in the corner of your eye and vanish afterwards. Everybody is very well able to commission a piece entirely outside of EF or any other convention, saving a bundle by not attending at all in the process, too! Yes, some artists have enormous waiting lists, but you know the deal: Quick, cheap, good: Pick any two. As far as I know, many artists would be glad if commissions would come in at a more steady rate instead of the typical spikes during/before holidays and large conventions. Customers could use this to their advantage and save a tidy sum.

I personally commissioned a badge long before the convention, knowing that during the convention, the artist wouldn't have any time for it, and it worked out just fine. What's the big deal, really? Commission the piece and agree on delivery during EF, case solved.

I'd like to apply the same argument to other limited goods. Some comics tend to be sold out pretty quickly, for example. Why is it so utterly difficult to preorder? Some dealers actually ask for preorders, to be delivered during the convention for cash! You save on shipping, you're guaranteed to get your goods, and the dealer has some actual idea of what is going to sell well. Everybody wins, and all it takes is a little planning, really.

To sum it up: It seems to me that the critique usually boils down to "people who pay extra money can get stuff I cannot possibly get, which is unfair, because I don't have that money", which is simply not true, as outlined above. Instead of money, you just have to invest some thought and, possibly, extra time. Nothing is ever for free.

If this still doesn't convince you, how about that: Artists are, so I'm told, human beings. They are technically able to freely decide which commissions to accept, and which not, and in what order. There is no law stating that commissions must be accepted in chronological order, or that commissions have to be accepted at all during the supersponsor-only admission time. But then, as an alternative, people who pay more for their commission (express fee, anyone?) would likely be preferred! Or those who fit better into the schedule. Or those who are good friends with the artist. Notice anything, yet? Buying anything is not a right. It is a privilege, and it always takes at least two parties in agreement to trade. And articles and services in high demand tend to get pricy and/or scarce, no need to be surprised here. Just be an even earlier bird that the supersponsors, or give the artist some other incentive to prefer your business.

Best regards,
  Gyroplast

[Skie]

But wait, you say! In THAT case, you could just have come in a bit earlier and been at the front of the line yourself! But the same thing is true for the sponsor levels: they're open to everyone; it's not as if there's a limited number of supersponsor slots available, and in fact, I think you can still upgrade even when you're already at the con and waiting in line at the registration desk. (Staffers, please correct me if I'm wrong there.)

Yes, but it costs money that not everyone has to give, or you forgot that point?

Finally: let's be honest, it's not the end of the world when you don't get a commission from your favorite artist, right? You'll probably get another chance later on, anyway, either online or at a different con.

Some people can't afford to go to many cons (e.g. me, I can only attend EF all year long).
Some artist don't offer online commissions (first example that comes to mind is Tani).


I never actually had a problem myself with getting stuff I want later, but I still find this perk silly.

[Dhary Montecore]

Yes, but it costs money that not everyone has to give, or you forgot that point?

Gyroplast is right here. If you don't got the money for a supersponsor-upgrade I too think that you wouldn't have the money for a On-site-commission by a high-class artist. And if you're just not willing to support others to get that advantage, you have to wait for later. Period.

Some artist don't offer online commissions (first example that comes to mind is Tani).

It was suggested getting in contact with the artist. That can be done by multiple ways. Not taking online commissions for example does not mean that you can't ask nicely via e-mail/PM/younameit.


Seriously: This discussion leads nowhere.

[Cheetah]

I second what dhary says. I don't see the discussion going anywhere. We will not be able to come to any final conclusion this way.

I can see that both sides have some good points, and I personally see myself leaning towards Gyroplast's point of view. I believe this is not REALLY a financial problem but rather a psychological effect. Sponsorship is how we finance a large part of the convention after all, so it's not like there is no significant return for all the non-sponsors. It's just not as obviously visible. Whether this effect outweights the overall benefits of making super-sponsorship appropriately super-attractive is a rather philosophical question that I would like to discuss with my fellow board members.

So thank you everybody for your detailed points of view, rest assured you have been heard, and your opinions will be taken into consideration and weighed against the inherent necessities of a big convention and all the other aspects that need to be taken into account. As we all know, it's not possible to make everybody happy.

Thanks again.